Curse

Moloch Vein · Aug 22, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Mark of Pain could do a lot less damage and still outclass SS when it comes to "damage potential".

The damage potential of the skill is the number of hits per second to the target. If you have 10 fiends and 8 characters equipped with spears, swords or axes, that's 18 hits, 10 of which at 1 attack/1.9 seconds, and 8 at 1/1.5s. That's 10.6 hits per second. SS only does damage when one single monster attacks or uses a skill. Even if we assume that the monster has an attack rate of 1/1s and spends all its time attacking, that's only 37 AoE DPS. Mark of Pain could do 4 (!) damage and beat that under optimal conditions.

In other words, Mark of Pain has a damage potential that's about 10 times higher than Spiteful Spirit, and this doesn't even count in any IAS.

-Lotus- · Aug 22, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

No, it does not.

Yes, it does. by far. learn the definition of the world "potential". in an ideal situation SS would easily out-damage MoP.

DarkSpirit · Aug 22, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Yes, it does. by far. learn the definition of the world "potential". in an ideal situation SS would easily out-damage MoP.

Sure if you define ideal situation as ONE and only ONE enemy so MoP cannot trigger, therefore zero damage.

Xenomortis · Aug 22, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Well if it's your team against one enemy, then Barbs would be better.

If it's just you and one enemy, then SS or Insidious with Enfeeble would be my choice.

DarkSpirit · Aug 22, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Well if it's your team against one enemy, then Barbs would be better.

If it's just you and one enemy, then SS or Insidious with Enfeeble would be my choice.

Barbs+10 fiends would probably out damage SS most of the time.

Just dont cast Barbs on the MoP target, so that the MoP target can stay alive longer to trigger MoP. When you are done triggering MoP from it, then cast Barbs to finish it off.

A. Noid · Aug 22, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Yes, it does. by far. learn the definition of the world "potential". in an ideal situation SS would easily out-damage MoP.

But, like others have said, your 'ideal situation' happens far less then the normal situation you usually find yourself in.

It boild down to this: Can you hit your enemy faster than he can attack you?

And consider IAS, heros/hench, minions, etc.

MoP outshines SS.

-ANoid

Xenomortis · Aug 22, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Barbs + a few physical attackers with a halfway decent attack speed would easily outdamage SS.

Lotus, SS in a mob can be easily outdone by a single MoP and a good amount of physical attackers all attacking that target.
Given that MoP can around 400 damage a second under optimal conditions.

As for an echoed SS, well if the two targets had a ridiculous attack speed (once a second), then you could get 70 dps.
That's still beaten by MoP's potential 400dps.

MoP will do better in the ideal situation. SS is designed to be used on mobs, as is MoP.

Moloch Vein · Aug 22, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Yes, it does. by far. learn the definition of the world "potential". in an ideal situation SS would easily out-damage MoP.

Please read and understand what I wrote. In an "ideal situation", Mark of Pain does ten times more damage than Spiteful Spirit.

Turbobusa · Aug 22, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

In a situation where 135646 physicals are bashing one target Barbs is going to do better.
Except if target has SoA.
Except if one of the physicals has a disenchant.
Except if target has spell breaker.
Except if someone has signet of disenchant.
Except if target has icy prism.
...
Get it?

snaek · Aug 23, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

[spiteful spirit] is horrible imo

the only time i'd run [spiteful spirit] is in a randomway or nub pug

only because when running things like [mark of pain]
its a support skill
i.e. its only as effective as ur teamates r able to put it to good use

so if ur teamates r nubs...
then u need to rely on a self-sufficient skill like [spiteful spirit] instead if u want things dead

but that goes against gw being a team game
and a nec being a "support" chara

if u dun want to worry bout "ideal situations" and "potential damage"

then run [order of pain]
very consistent and reliable dmg in -any- situation (with a physical heavy team obviously)

Improvavel · Sep 03, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

In a situation where 135646 physicals are bashing one target Barbs is going to do better.
Except if target has SoA.
Except if one of the physicals has a disenchant.
Except if target has spell breaker.
Except if someone has signet of disenchant.
Except if target has icy prism.
...
Get it?

Paras are both physical hitters and can bring quite easily enchantment removal. They can also bring interrupts for them and for the others.

Warriors, Dervishes, Assassins can have either knocks and/or interrupts and/or enchantment removal.

Please stop filling ur physical attackers with 8 attacks or 6 self-heals.

4 Physical supported by 2 monks (or other similar healer/protectors) and 2 other casters, call it mind blast weapon spammer, or orders necro, or curse necros are the most damaging, resilient team setup available. Just remember to bring enough hex and condition removal.

Turbobusa · Sep 03, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I'll give you a hint.
This was not a serious post and was just to show that theoricrafting about the best possible situation is not the way to go since you'll meet it perhaps once in the entire game.

But thanks anyway I'll try to remember your precious advice about my bar.
Iz dat gud enuf?
[frenzy][power attack][whirling axe][mending][healing breeze][heal area][heal party][balthazar's spirit] <- 4 my mana
I has an elite atak iz dat betar?

And 8 discord/2 mm with healers in there, damage negating, AoE damage is the most rampaging thing you'll see. (Previous necro vs physical thread was hijacked by mods gogogo)

EDIT: Just read your post below. I give up. I'm saying the same exact thing about tweaking your build to what you encounter, and I don't know why you seem to think I say something else.

Improvavel · Sep 03, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

I'll give you a hint.
This was not a serious post and was just to show that theoricrafting about the best possible situation is not the way to go since you'll meet it perhaps once in the entire game.

The best possible situation for barbs : 1 enemy hexed with barbs with a few physicals attacking it. Seems quite probable.

Not changing builds according to the areas is one of the reasons people need obsidian tanks and ursans.

MoP is a very strong skill. So is barbs. SS is better if battle drags which means ur team is probably bad.

Trvth Jvstice · Sep 04, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

The absolute best and most reliable way to ensure that you, as a Necromancer, are causing as much damage as possible is to use
[Mark of Pain] [Barbs] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] along with a Physical heavy group aka a MM hero. You can more efficiently use these skills with [[Assassin's Promise]. Then add appropriate skills such as [[Rigor Mortis], [[Enfeebling Blood], [[Technobabble],and [[Finish Him!]. You don't need a Resurrect skill - use Resurrection Scrolls.

This is what I usually use, or a close variant- Moloch Vein's Mark of Pain Nuker

Cosmic Error · Sep 06, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

[Mark of Pain]+[Barbs], easily.
Toss [Spiteful spirit] on the same mob you used those skills on, and you have more AOE damage than a physical could ever do on his own.

Tyla · Sep 06, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

imma swinging mah scithe maek u go teh pewpew

Even more consistent on a Critscythe, which will deal both MoP and Barbs' damage but more. Plus SS will really need someone to bodyblock to get the most use out of it, which will require the aid of a primarily melee character with basic positioning skills.

Cosmic Error · Sep 07, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

imma swinging mah scithe maek u go teh pewpew

Even more consistent on a Critscythe, which will deal both MoP and Barbs' damage but more. Plus SS will really need someone to bodyblock to get the most use out of it, which will require the aid of a primarily melee character with basic positioning skills.

Scythes are hideously overpowered. That is all.
Anyway, is it really necessary to have a physical do absolutely all the killing against abslolutely everything? [Spiteful Spirit] DOES inflict heavy AOE pressure on a mob, which, when combined with [Mark of pain], you're getting an obscene nuke.

Moloch Vein · Sep 07, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

imma swinging mah scithe maek u go teh pewpew

Even more consistent on a Critscythe, which will deal both MoP and Barbs' damage but more.

Who brought scythes into this argument. Anyway, Tyla, as I've pointed out earlier, you're wrong. You're not going to be able to deal 200dps AoE on your scythe versus any armor level foes. A Mark nuker routinely deals that damage and more.

Tyla · Sep 07, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

With a Critscythe you usually get 100 DPS. Taking into account IAS attacks such as Mystic and Eremites Sweep you can also make it come out more often with extra damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

Anyway, is it really necessary to have a physical do absolutely all the killing against abslolutely everything?

Not at all.

However, SS in combination with MoP has no synergy at all as SS isn't physical.

As for Moloch's parting here, I'm taking into account only one skill. Way of the Master.

So, my Critscythe (Way of the Master) on your MoP. My autoattacking with a scythe will win this one.

Taking in a full skillbar, my Critscythe deals more damage than a single MoP hit. In combination with several other skills, you get more power.

Moloch Vein · Sep 07, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Yes, you deal more damage than a single MoP hit. That's not in question. Try to deal more damage than all the MoP hits combined, with a single character. It's a futile exercise.